A Deliberation on Immigration

so i'm excited that everyone came out for this and i'm gonna put my computer away in just a second this is a new event and you know libertarians like to uh they like to fight a lot and bruce and i will probably disagree with us a little bit while we're on the stage uh but part of the intent of this is to show how people who recognize that uh they're on the same team uh the vast majority of time uh can talk about things uh even when they even when they disagree and so the format of this event which will probably evolve a little bit over time uh but it's something that we want to be doing uh in a repeated fashion is is two people who um your debates are are for when we can't behave in in good faith um you know when we trust that we can behave in good faith when we trust they're on the same side i think we can have a different kind of conversation and so that is uh that's

intent of this format give a big hand to bruce uh for participating

and to jeremy for putting all this together yeah

so the idea is we're going to run through uh about 10 topics uh maybe we'll cut a little bit if we don't have uh time and bruce and i will just uh we'll just talk about them a little bit the audience has uh an app that will let them give some feedback about whether they want the topic to change or they want to hear more from one person or the other uh this is the first live test of this hopefully it works and if it doesn't well we'll just talk about the topics one way or another so um i would say um let's just go ahead and get started okay okay sounds good

uh so i'll i'll read the topic uh you can say if you agreed or not i'll say if i agreed or not and i'll give you the first uh the first response at least for the first topic so the first discussion topic was some type of

immigration system is necessary even without a welfare state what did you have for this i said i agree i i agreed with that yeah as well yeah

i think you have to have you have to have you know

a lot of people say open borders and i think that's kind of naive you you can't just have totally open there has to be some sort of system so um yeah i

i wouldn't i wouldn't say that you won't you want

nothing you've got to have some system yeah and i i

so i think this one is interesting because once you're sort of away from that pure open borders there's no right to interference you've kind of to some degree embraced empirical questions

around what works and what doesn't you know what

once you say well there has to be some kind of system the questions become

well what type of system

works for what we want to accomplish it's not this purest position around well you know nothing can

ever be

be done and so i think i actually think if if if

you know sort of pro-liberty-minded people

are agreed on that you know because there is this talking point that oh if we just got rid of the welfare state you know then we could have open borders um i'm not inclined to agree something i've

seen

living in new hampshire you've seen it too i think is you know there are a lot of people who disagree with us on a lot of things you know if something like covet happened again you know i don't care if you're a net economic contributor i you know i care if you're if you're you know gonna uh you

know be

tyrannous towards me right you know and so i think there has to be some consideration of this stuff

beyond just you know net net economic factors yeah i think that we we have to look at what is ideal what

we wish as people who care about liberty and what the real world is and the welfare

state is part of the

real world i think we would probably all want somewhat more immigration if we didn't have the welfare state but there has to be some kind of controls you know that for me the big issues are the welfare state if we could eliminate the welfare state that would be a huge step i would want to move much towards much more more open immigration if we could solve the crime which fortunately in new hampshire is not as bad as other places but it's still bad enough and it's terrible in places like california so uh you know solving the crime and then the issue that you mentioned you know particularly if you allow voting uh people who come in and either vote or in other other means other than voting try and interfere with your liberty but if we could solve those things that that would be i'd be in favor of you know those are really the only issues that i would have

with immigrants pretty much you know broadly uh if we could solve those things then i'd be in favor of letting a lot more people in okay i could uh

push back on that a little bit or explore a little bit

more but i think we'll probably naturally get through with some of the other questions so

want to move to the next topic sure

this is the first time we've moved to the next topic okay all right uh so this one i'll read it

uh so uh government quotas produce better immigration outcomes than market mechanisms like insurance or

sponsorship yeah i said disagree because as soon as i didn't even read it at all as soon as i said government anything

i i also disagreed with this i tried to write the questions

i believe i had

five and five or maybe i had four and six i i tried to write the questions so that agree wasn't the right answer right to everything because i think that's like that's biased um yeah so it wasn't like this trick where agree was the right and disagree was wrong this you know i was talking to people as they were checking into the event tonight and i said you know i think there's only one question where uh if you if where one answer puts you off the reservation then it was this question it was this question i you know and i i get bothered

uh when i hear you know to libert a lot of the

libertarian positions on immigration are something approaching in my opinion something approaching open borders pushing for lots of immigration and there's this sound criticism of the conservative position that libertarians could be making that doesn't get made which is well the concert this even if you're still centrally planning immigration you know if we're gonna if we're gonna use democracy to set an exact quota for people from various places

like that's a centrally planned

system yeah and so even if someone is in favor of severe immigration restrictions we still wouldn't want that to be centrally planned right like that should be a bottom-up market

process that says this is

what people want and we're willing to spend their resources for it and there's variation and it's and it's not you know we all raise our hands and then and then congress picks a number i think i think that's clearly a flawed uh system and i'm certainly very interested in in in solutions in this direction where uh you know how can we use the properties of a market with insurance sponsorship um things like this and i think definitely things in that direction have to be better than

than a government

quote yeah definitely yeah immigration is really it's really a systems issue you know how do people come in how do you control it you know whose property

is it these are the kind of issues that

you know so from a system standpoint i think things like sponsorships government contracts you know and there's been a lot of great libertarian thinkers you know milton friedman and thomas soul and others who've talked about kind of exactly this you know i like the sponsorship um issue because it solves a lot

of

of of what you know what we talked

about with um uh you know the issues at least for me the big issues

are you know are they draining our system uh are they committing crimes you can solve both of those with with um uh you know sponsorship um putting you know having somebody else kind of vouch for you and also i think one of the interesting things that thomas soul talked a

lot about was that there's

different kinds of immigrants from different places different people have different things to offer different countries are very very different in what they offer and and even within certain countries there are countries that you might consider generally undesirable but there are desirable people within those countries and that's best solved not by central planning where somebody is you know and we've seen a million examples globally of where central planners sit there and they say well you know we're gonna have this quota in the green category in the yellow category and that would just become a big bureaucracy but if you allow uh you know flexibility in systems where they where uh you know it's more market driven i think that's a lot healthier way to look at it

yeah so i think that's right although at the same time i would say we're not anywhere near so these ideals about an insurance and also there's a lot of um messy

details of well what does your sponsorship

system actually look like what are the penalties for when you sponsor someone so there is still a lot of messy stuff to figure out there that we probably won't get into but we can if you want to uh you know but um the uh the things that we're doing currently aren't anything close to that right you know and i i i don't think our current immigration system um is utilizing this kind of information uh at

all yeah um and so

it would be nice to be something in this direction we seem we seem very far away from it doesn't seem

like there's much appetite for it on the right or the left we've gone the opposite way it was

interesting i was doing a little bit of research on this just to prepare for this talk and it was funny because a lot of the you know videos and things that i was reading were from you know 20 years ago and they're like you know someday you might

even have immigrants come in and illegally and

still get benefits and it's like well that's a normal thing now

you know they didn't even foresee

what a disaster it is now yeah uh so so yeah but for sure it's it's uh we're very far from ideal

okay

well we started with a couple of agreements i know from reviewing

and this isn't new information to

you either so that's bringing on you i think i think we have something like around six disagreements yeah so we started with two agreements i imagine we're going to go to a disagreement next so this is where bruce and i are going to start fist fighting uh on stage as soon as we disagree so yes okay oh all right abolishing ice would be better than keeping it as is

i say abolish them

get rid of them all right so i was i was uh i was

a disagree uh on this one okay i guess i'll go first uh you know i don't uh i'm not like an ice lover you know i think i think obviously they uh you know they make mistakes i think there are criticisms that i would

have of them you know but you know my understanding is it's something

like 15 million people were or a very large number of people were let in over the last four years uh these people it was not legitimate that they enter the united states i don't believe that these people are for the most part making

america more american let's say or

making america more libertarian if that that first phrase is uh too vague you know and so uh would

we

really be better off with nothing i would i you know i would i would come down on on knowing

that and i can

understand of course having problems with with some

of what you know some of what ice does um but i still

wouldn't i still wouldn't come down on on we could just get rid of it

yeah um the biggest issues i

have with ice i mean one it's it's sort of part of this dhs this

this sort of domestic standing army

that our founders uh founding fathers warned about you know it's really a bush cheney creation this homeland security apparatus and then they they rolled

in ins what it used to be ins i think it

worked better when it was ins um

you know i i think that you know growing up in most of our

lifetimes especially people who are over 45 uh ins was the the the sort of authority and it wasn't known as being as heavy-handed as as as ice i think ice has been ineffective i think it cost something like 220 000 for every person that they've deported so that's a lot of money um we do have where i might agree with you a little bit on this is that in an ideal world we wouldn't need them because we would have good enforcement on uh and i try and look at what what works i travel a lot um the the uae

we're gonna do that one though we're gonna do we have a guest residency all right the the the idea of

where i've seen it work well is when you if you have a country that has absolutely no tolerance for crime because i don't really care if somebody's here illegally if they're

not draining our money and

committing crimes um i don't care about somebody who's you know illegally helping on a you know a plumbing contractor uh or or doing whatever under the table that's not a big issue and i certainly

don't want to spend 220 000 of our money and have a bunch

of you know frankly heavy-handed sometimes

thuggish mask-wearing people that don't respect the constitution you know you saw the video in

main of them saying you know hey we're gonna put you on a list and this kind

of thing i don't really

want that um what i do have a problem is if that person here is here illegally and they commit crimes and ideally we would have the local starting with the very local police in your local town and your local justice system would if they commit a crime absolutely no tolerance and and there's other countries where you commit a crime in say uae

you're out you're gone instantly all right so i

gotta let me let me push back on a couple of these uh so one you know the uae is a much different immigration system and country in general you know and so i guess part of this you didn't you said it earlier but not in your last answer it's also we've also abolished democracy or something like this where these immigrants are not participating in the you know they're not participating in the political process to the same degree right like immigrants

an immigrant to dubai or

uae is not participating in the political process at all um something else i would say is and this is where i think actually ice has probably done the best is not even removing illegals

but acting as a sound deterrent

we've seen a substantial drop in the amount of people who are coming in in the first place so we can look at the actual sticker number of what it costs per removal i don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head but my understanding is that there's a substantial multiple of the people who are removed who are either self-removing or not coming in the first place

and so certainly a 200 000 per removal price might be

high but if you're getting you know some multiple keeping

10 more for coming in and so on and so

forth and so i do think any kind of analysis you know has like it might be that the best bang for the buck is like mean ice tweets you know like because they're like that's very cheap yeah and uh and it gets the it gets people scared from coming here in the first place that might actually be you know sort of one of the most like like highest roi actions like i actually kind of wonder when they're getting you know because they make these posts they sometimes get like ratioed

or

attacked or whatever and i'm like maybe this is actually the single best thing they're doing because it's making everyone aware uh you know of this like my impression is the average illegal immigrant is not like a high information uh person who's like closely following federal government policy they're kind of picking it up through vibes and so if the vibe is harsher then maybe that's one of the more you know effective deterrent yeah vibes

matter um you know that's another thing i've seen work uh globally you know because because you know and i know you you've made this point before you know there are people that are just really really ignorant i mean there are people that you had a great line you said some people don't even understand cause and effect yeah i mean there's people that just don't get it and they maybe only understand uh you know gee that's scary that bad yeah you know and and so they you know they you know you you do want to

deter them to some degree yeah so i do think

that expectation setting is really important um and we will probably

do a longer dive in dubai but

again my impression is that's something they do very well there's this expectation of like

yeah you better not come here and mess around yeah it's very known

and they make very high profile uh if you if somebody steals your phone they will be caught period absolutely

positively that person is

going to be caught they're going to investigate it with the level that they would investigate a murder here in manchester they're going to have 30 i had a friend he had his watch stolen they had they had three detectives and four other officers show up within half an hour they traced every camera they treated it like it like somebody stole the crown jewels they traced this person figured out where they were they got the guy's watch back within four hours and that person was on a plane out of the country within seven more hours probably after that they held

them in a holding cell until they're out of

there and that spreads quickly because the the people especially the worst people the people who are super super low information uh and not good wouldn't wouldn't otherwise be good to sit they hear that and they know that and they're like gee this is not a i'm gonna lose a good thing they're gonna put me on a plane back to my crappy country i don't want to go there i'm gonna i'm gonna be on

my best behavior before we move on from this one i mean don't you think if we just abolish us tomorrow that does mean that there's a lot more people coming into america that we don't

necessarily i'd like to go back to like the ins and i'd

like to have the enforcement at the border rather than internally because internally it can also affect our rights and we've had a number of people where our rights you know there's stories where there's a you know i think there was a doctor they pulled over his car they accused him of being illegal you know we don't want to have those kind of things in a free society and

you know one argument is that well you're

dealing with millions of people you're going to have some percentage you know

half a percent or 0.01

percent or whatever you're gonna have some sliver um but i don't like to see that in a in a free society at all i don't want to see people's rights violated i don't want to be in a papers

please uh society um you know so i would

rather have it at the board in a you know we have again perfect world and what what is reality in a perfect world we'd have very very very strong border and we would have judges not just in new hampshire but across the country where they had this no

intolerance policy like you're here it doesn't matter illegally illegally you're a guest and you

treat it like a giant piece of private property like you violated our property here you're out um and uh you know that's especially difficult to deal with in places like ohio california uh massachusetts you know where they don't they don't respect the rule of law and they let people get away with with crime so so you'd have to take that all those billions of dollars

were spent on ice maybe you

have the federal prosecutors lock up a couple of these judges and uh and lock up some of these some of these prosecutors who failed and and and you know just just

get rid of some of these crazy systems

like they have in mass you know down in massachusetts you go down route 128 here um there's hotels that the government runs that they just took over they gave massive multi-million dollar contracts they bought a catering firm they give three meals a day to people who are here illegally and they let them stay there and then they were they forbid them from working i mean that's just completely you know completely crazy but um but yeah i mean i i think you know ideally we put it closer to us ideally individuals and next best is local police next best is state police absolute worst is is the feds there are times when feds are necessary but i would rather exhaust

everything else first i i think

i i i will say i'm not persuaded but i think we have another one to

talk more about how

enforcement on the interior would actually work let's we're gonna go to the next question before if someone could derek could you just grab that power

block and plug it in so this screen

doesn't turn off again thank you the um so

the next topic is uh uh bruce and i have a screen here

you can't see to read the questions uh nations have minimal if any ethical obligations to

foreigners

i said what did i this one i was close on because it really depends

what you mean by you disagree yeah i said i said uh disagree okay

it depends what you mean by minimal we might be fairly i think

you probably said agree i did say agree with this one and this doesn't mean that i might

you're not

want to help someone other side i might not want to help someone um in another country but i believe you know if i'm part of a polity if i'm part of a country or

a nation it's it's to protect or help

defend you know the rights of the people who are uh a part of it um you know that we we shouldn't

have

uh my my nation shouldn't be giving you know much consideration uh to people who aren't part of my

nation that that's not my nation's job my nation is to protect the other citizens the residents of the of the country yeah and i agree on that i think

it really comes down to you know on this one i was some of these were some of these are kind of nuanced you know it's it's it depends

on your

definition with the question with uh minimal it depends what you mean by minimal you know we do have some obligations to foreigners i think they they should have some right to due process for example they should have right to the basics that we believe in you know life liberty and property you don't want to have somebody come here and know that well if an american

robs them nobody's going to care you

know then there are countries like that there are countries where if you go there and it's uh i mean there's states that are sort of like that in some ways but you know if the local versus a foreigner the

local is always going to win and then they and then i think that's

bad ethically and morally for the country i think that uh you know so that's what i meant by minimal i think that we should have you know if somebody comes here they they don't they i agree they shouldn't have the same privileges i view america should be like a private club and it and it shouldn't be for everybody and it should be considered a privilege to be an american um but if somebody comes here and they are a guest because they've come in our borders they should have minimal like

it like it says you know some sort of

minimal um you know we have a minimal obligation to them that we're that they know that they are not going to be robbed and they'll say oh sorry you know the the

robber was american tough ha ha go away which

does happen in some countries you know there are places where if you go up against

a local you will

lose all the time in a court or you know the the cops

will show up and they're gonna side with the

local every time and i and those are usually not great places and and also there is we are it sounds cheesy but we are part of a global community i mean the whole rest of the world does affect us when we have billions and billions of poor people when they have strife

and war and other but that's

about us but that can easily be reframed as as that's affecting us so that you know right but that

stuff that the if bad things happen in the world it does it does affect us so we want to be uh that

example of a shining hell on this you know shining city on the hill whatever okay all right and i didn't

hear too much that i would disagree with but the concern to me there is you know the the disagree where i we have a system of of you know refugees people seeking asylum and a lot of the argument here is that we have this obligation to help these uh you know people and i am not i would i'm not even

saying that we shouldn't i guess i probably would say we shouldn't when we're getting into any kind of

coercive taxation of course system but like i just i don't i don't believe like it's nice if you can help these people you know but there are billions

of people maybe not billions there's a lot of people

in the world who don't you know have it as as

well as americans uh i

don't i do believe americans have have for the most part earned that and if you start saying

well we have these people have it worse

and so therefore that it you know entitles an obligation to help them you know soon you've got an america with two billion people in it because there's all kinds of people you could who would be better off if they were here and we have this and so i

guess so maybe if you if you believe we have a

more than minimal how are you drawing that that line i

was thinking more about their rights when you say

help help is a different word i don't think we're obligated to help people and i do agree with you on that um and the world is a very very big place there are one billion people who do not have a toilet in the world they don't have a toilet i mean do you know your

life expectancy drops by 20 years if you

don't have a toilet i mean it's this is inconceivable to even the poorest people in america you can't conceive of like oh you're gonna live 20 years less because they have no toilet you know there's there's a couple billion people who live on you know somewhere less than seven eight dollars a day you know and and uh no we're not obligated to help them because it's not possible and uh and uh and also nobody's obligated to help anybody so help is a different word than you know kind of the the you know they have we have a moral obligation to have

you know some kind of rights for them i see okay so

an obligation to respect their rights versus an obligation to

yeah yeah we don't know owe anybody

nobody owes anybody else's uh you know wages or anything

or labor to somebody else okay i think that's a sensible distinction you want to keep it moving

okay immigration policy should focus on just economics and crime ignoring

culture or lifestyle i had to disagree on i i figured you did and and this is

a nice nuanced conversation i and and i i you know again we may agree on parts within this i said i said agree

um but there's maybe some caveats to that that we can discuss so here's the here's

the hard part for me because i actually uh you probably don't know my history i don't know probably most people listening on my history you know but i i used to be closer to uh you know an open borders a more immigration kind of person because i got into liberty through the economics and it is true that there are people here who would be more

productive uh you know and it's theoretically a win-win

when uh you uh when things can be made you know cheaper and we can take it and this we're not taking advantage of them in a bad sense like it's a win-win to to be when when things get you know the ai is going to make uh i'm a i'm a software engineer the ai makes it a lot easier to make software that's not a bad thing that's a good thing when um

most

people are consumers when it's cheaper to make things generally everyone benefits and so maybe not everyone but on net people benefit and so you know my default answer for a long time

used to be closer to yours

what i've grown concerned about is that is sort of you know how do you maintain the system itself like part

of part of what allows western

nations america to work to the extent that they do and i'm sure you and i agree that they don't even work that well

um but

they do actually work better than most of the rest of the world and how do we maintain that course system how do we maintain an infrastructure um that's relatively impartial again compared to the to the rest of the world there's these concepts of like um clientelism and uh you know how much how much do you have to get favors to get things done by the government

versus your government treats

just treats you fairly and it's like it's basically western europe and japan are like the only places in the world that have something and again we don't think we have it that good but you look at the rest of the world we kind of we kind of do and so how do we how do we maintain those outcomes if we're if we're there are all kinds of people who might be economic contributors but they might have negative externalities on the system they might be degrading the system itself and and uh so that's one aspect of and then the other one is i do care about things

beyond you know economics i

do care about am i going to have personal liberty you know in my life like i would i would have liked to live in a place you know i i do think covet to me is a very crystallizing example again where it's like i'm not saying i have the right to expel them or something but

like i would like to live in a place

where yeah very few people were responding the way that most of

america and most of the world did

i recognize that that's objectively a rare preference but if that's a rare preference and i want to sustain my preferences then i do need to be concerned about the portion of people who hold them in my in

my you know polity or nation yeah and um

and the other thing which i thought you were going to mention on this is is sort of you know uh statistics i mean there there are people you've you've looked at a lot of data and you've posted a lot of data there are people that just don't share our values i mean

their country their entire countries where and you know you can't always discriminate against

everything in a group but there are entire countries

where where the over if you have any

group of people where you have you know 80 85 percent of a demographic that that says something insane like you know that's completely antithetical to our values that's something that you should know and you say gee might give you pause to have these people come in and and hopefully you know ideally we could fix that with systems i think that that having the privilege to vote and serve on a jury um you mentioned one one time before you alluded to it just now kind of you know what if what if you want to you have a dispute with your neighbor and you have somebody who just doesn't

respect property

rights or something i mean there's some there's some wacky people out there with wacky ideas

so to that extent uh you know i

definitely recognize there is a big difference in cultures um but hopefully we can solve that by systems where we create a system where it it it doesn't because we're um you know not just letting everybody in and we're certainly not letting them vote and have power over us where you know i've been all over the world i've been blessed to travel you know and i've met people that are you know from very very screwy places who have very screwy ideas um and i've met people who can't read i've met people where i'm convinced that that they cannot understand basic cause and effect and they can't understand anything i used to be very against the idea of um you know like they have in singapore caning i thought i said oh you know i'm

against i'm a

libertarian i don't want the government caning anybody somebody talked to me about it said you know there are people who just can't understand anything and as a you know former martial artist i realized there's nothing that will rewire the brain better than

a beating you know and you see those you see those guys you've all seen that video of those seek

guys where you know they're in some

socialist hell hole like california and the guy just moseys in and he's stealing the cigarettes and they've had enough and they came out from behind and they beat that tar out of him and he's

screaming on the camera that guy was rewired in that moment and that saved the taxpayers you know 300 grand that they would have put him in a prison where he would have learned learn stuff there are people who and they're people especially from certain very failed

states where that is the only way

they'll understand however having said that

this is how screwy they are having said that i i also have

seen these people become quite productive i've seen these same people from the most screwy places in the

world uh senegal uh somalia

afghanistan um and they're

they'll work like crazy very very um low wages which

um if you could have somebody that you could have who's like gonna clean your car and polish your tires and drive you and get all your food and it would cost us here in new

hampshire you know 80 bucks a

week or something like that that could improve our lifestyle and a lot of people would and i won't get too off topic but people would say well that's terrible and that's cruel because they need to get 20 bucks an hour it's like well in their country they're gonna die

they're gonna make a dollar a day

so i think it's quite humanitarian if i could put somebody and pay them uh you know what are very low wages for new hampshire and and also frankly if somebody doesn't know how to read you know they're just not as marketable as your average new

hampshire person who works at a fast

food joint um so anyway i think that there is big differences culturally but i think that we can we could address that i you know and again there's the ideal world versus

the real world but in an ideal

world we would have systems that would recognize that and make it so it's like well i don't really care if this guy's a screwball from a screwy country because he doesn't have any power over me we

can use them to the extent that we can one of the things that i always come back to with that question is well okay if we get if we

can have this system i because i agree that some of these screwballs have you know there's there's they i think in the right system they could they could

contribute more how is that like that

system can't exist with any percentage of like if it's 90 if my population is 99 this person right my sit like yeah so even even if you think the right system could accommodate some of these people yeah there still

have to be a limit yeah okay and that's

interesting because we didn't have limits for a lot of our history from like i think 1790 to

1915 or 14 or something like that yeah

there were but there was some natural selection

yeah not in the darwinian sense but like a you couldn't

get here yeah yeah yeah who who was coming

here that and the world is is huge you know there are there are like i say you know a billion people without a toilet there's a you know another couple billion from second and third world countries there's another billion who just completely don't have values that that coincide with our values so you know that's a lot of probably kind of like four billion you

know on the conservative side that

to some degree could be disruptive particularly if you let in 200

million of them yeah you know i think

i also think again people have i think generally people have the right to what what they want it

depends they don't necessarily have the right to want

what they want on any scale like i can't necessarily want california to be the way that i would want it to be or whatever i don't know that's not where i live but you know if i want to live in a neighborhood that celebrates or sorry that speaks english and puts up christmas lights you know in this kind of thing like i ought to have the right there should be some way that i can produce that you know uh that you know and so what i i i think maybe that doesn't necessarily apply to america we we could talk about the

various scales we probably

should move on from this question but definitely i also think there has to be if if people if a lot of people want something there's generally a way of producing it that's

consistent with property rights and and you know our kinds of our kinds of values and so if

a lot of people you know want to live in an english-speaking you know uh christian nation maybe not everyone is christian but it's dominated by christian principles or or things in this direction like you know i always don't like it when libertarians answer is like well you're not allowed to have that you know uh because i think for the most part there is ways we can produce all kinds of different societies in ways that are aligned with the principles of of liberty and property rights and voluntary agreement and so um i'm always where and i don't think you were saying this so i'm not trying to say you're saying that but i am always wary of that are you okay moving on to the next topic

and if producers have any feedback on timing do we need to go quicker or slower on topics okay oh this was the hardest one for me the government ought to be able to compel private

individuals to perform immigration checks

i actually forget i i actually changed my answer

on this like three times and i forget i forget when i decided i think i actually said um i actually think i said that i agree but i was going to let you change my mind on this one uh so i was very torn good

yeah i said disagree um and so

this would be is it doing checks on private individuals or compelling private so making this is the status quo where this is the

status with the gov so just to understand what this is hinting at i mean or uh i the we already have the government compels employers yeah banks uh and um property owners who are renting their property i believe all three yeah are compelled to go through something approximating

an e-verify type of thing

uh where i should talk to details but uh yeah

this is this is the status quo so this isn't

some theoretical reality this is the status quo today the question is phrased as an ought to be able to so this it does let you us lean on our idealism a little

bit of the one they ought not to be able to so um you know uh so i guess i would agree they ought not to be able to you know um uh you know practically it's like what it's similar to the ice question it's like what would i get rid of this

stuff tomorrow you know what are the trade-offs i mean and i i hate this stuff i will say like i you know i i used to face it in my uh work when i was running a content platform used by tens of millions of people and you know you're basically obligated to be a

cop like like someone uploads something and without even anyone complaining i have a proactive

obligation to you know or if a moderator notices something or whatever like we have a proactive obligation to act as cops and that does rub me the wrong way that that uh my government compels me to be a to be a cop right

um but then uh

you know so so yeah so it's not it's not hard to convince you know the odd that ought

not to be

possible but at the same time i do i do find the you know these are as we said at the outset like these are practical questions how do you make it how do you build a system

that works

and so if we're getting a lot of people here who shouldn't

be here you know what is what is an

effective way of dealing with that if if renters or banks checking people's identity is an effective way of dealing with that like do i you know swallow my objection because it produces

an outcome that i like it's a tough question for me yeah i feel like

it's kind of like aml kyc rules and the rules that you mentioned about content where you know they've they've deputized millions of people you know in our industry there's you know millions and millions and millions of hours i mean there's hundreds of thousands of employees that do aml kyc that's a brand new thing you know 30 40 years ago you you know you could like buy a boat and pay 12 grand cash and that was allowed because it was your money now you you like they're going to treat you

like a criminal and they're going to treat the

bank like a criminal they're going to be like well how did you do this and all this and there's there's a lot of wheel spinning um you know tens

and tens of thousands of people and then enforcement

officers enforcing them and it's like well where's the crime and and with with the immigration you know you have uh you know million hotels that are checking to make sure every single staff member is legit and all of this but where's

the the okay so you know okay so maybe this

is maybe

not central to the question but it's probably a divide that's come up a couple times maybe

it

makes sense to dig into this a little more i i

do believe that being

here illegally i think it makes

sense of this is a crime in and of itself

yeah like i think that part of

being part of being in a

functioning society i love this analogy or this this thought experiment that's like does the does my suppose you and i ever had a dispute or you have a dispute with your neighbor uh you know does your right to sue your neighbor make or your neighbor's right to sue you does that make you more free or

less

free and you know i'm on the side that this makes us more free the the fact that we can use a court system this is a more civilized and more free way of resolving this dispute than going right to

punching each other or threatening each other or whatever whatever would have happened before this

and so if someone is i i think it is and i'm open-minded on we can imagine decentralized systems or better things in the united states status quo but like the idea that

someone could be in my

community and they're not like an addressable knowable person not saying they have to like wear an rfid tag broadcasting their name or whatever but like i i want to know like because if they're if they're here illegally like they can smash my car and they can go back

to mexico

yeah you know like they can and and so whereas if someone is a citizen if they're known you know these these kinds of things you know can't happen to the same

degree and so i do

i do consider it like something of a requirement or a good thing at least that like the people who are either citizens of a

nation or visiting a nation or guest residents of a nation like people should be addressable and

and and known there should be some way of looking this stuff up we can do it in ways that respect privacy and so on but the idea that someone could just be here and and not have the right to be here and be doing things and i can't yeah you know address them i i i that that rubs me the wrong way

i think that's a fair point i think that's a fair point you know when i in the early 90s

i lived in

california and they had two different insurance systems

you could get for your car they had so

many incidents of exactly what you're talking about illegals

from mexico who would come up and

they smash your car and they'd be like i'm not paying i'm going back to mexico and so you had two

levels of insurance you get the regular car insurance that everybody got and then you got a

special car insurance that costs twice as much that covers you for the illegal immigrants from

mexico who are going to smash your car and they're going to skip town and they the insurance company don't play by the rules insurance company isn't going to file a claim with their company because they don't have one they're going to skip town so so yeah that's a fair

point i think that but going back to the point of is it right to make everybody a cop to enforce that i think probably not sure so

but then it becomes well okay how are we going to do it yeah like

you know how we you know if if we

accept that it is bad you know maybe you might want an alternative easier immigration system guest resident maybe we want other alternatives but like that's not what we have we have we have people who are coming here illegally who are not citizens who aren't legible to

the system etc like well we

don't want ice to do it yeah we don't want private employers do we

don't the banks do well how do we do it how do we ever how do you ever and this comes back to enforcement

you know the countries i've seen do do it well you know a lot of other countries have very very restrictive enforcement we were in saudi arabia and my wife needed to get surgery so they had a they had a visa thing that said you you are only allowed to stay whatever 90 days or something 60 days and then you have to leave and then you can come back and that was just our particular

visa that she had at the time well she

had a surgery and they said well you you're really not supposed to you know she had the surgery on like the 59th day and they say you're the doctor says well you're not supposed to leave and i kind of asked around with immigration and stuff and they're like the rules is the rule you're leaving you you know you break this rule you're out of here and you're never coming back you're gonna get a you know in in uae they will um they'll put a stamp on your passport that's basically like the fu stamp and you're not coming back you know they're gonna put a big x on it and it's something like a decade before you're ever even allowed to apply so if you have strong enforcement and

there's challenges with both

those countries in other ways but if you have strong enforcement where people know that gee i better not be here illegally because uh it's it's right now there's no penalty at all you know it's a revolving door they'll they maybe not kick you out maybe they'll give

you a free hotel but yeah but

what is that because well they're coming in illegally so they're not coming through the immigration

system jailing them

just cost money we could revisit your caning idea

like you know like it's uh what are we what are you know what are we doing like because it's you know

to take the mexican who hits the car and i don't i don't even know if that stereotype's true i'll tell assume it is you what are we doing with the mexican who hits the car

you know what okay but they

they're either run away or if it what

is the i could look i'm open-minded i agree that if if if

you're maybe the right kind of strictness you can be looser you know i'm i'm open-minded about that but what is the strict thing that you can actually do i

mean if you if we had strong border if we had our enforcement at the border very very strong border then kicking

out people would make mean something

because then they couldn't just come right back in sure and it's like hey

you've you've broken our rules

you were a guest here you violated it you were accused

of a misdemeanor or you didn't have the paperwork or you were only supposed to be here 90 days and you stayed build the wall drums on the wall is that is that that's the

yeah i believe in a strong i believe in a strong um

you know a strong

border and you know having that control you know just like you

would if you have a castle you know

you can be as kind of a king in your own castle as you want um you know i'm very uh you know i i don't it doesn't bother me like um if somebody

comes in a space that i own and does something i

disagree with but there's certain things i wouldn't have tolerance for i

should be able to kick those

people out i like that you know and part of why i like having this conversation makes me feel like we're succeeding here a little bit it's like there's a complete logical consistency you

know like

you're you know you might have reached different conclusions but i do i do see a logical consistency to you know to the answers that um uh that you're giving so uh you want to keep it moving go to the next one

all right this was um i think actually the most uh divided question followed by the one previously

freedom of movement is a natural

right this one is a little bit underspecified i actually asked

three different ais what freedom of movement means to make sure i understood to make sure my meaning was uh correct uh you know so basically it's it's it's it's debated whether freedom of movement includes um basically implies open borders

right uh that's

sort of so it's it's kind of it's a little bit i don't know if this is a proper use of question begging i said agree basically with the caveat that it's a right to exit not a right to

enter yeah so

freedom of movement tends to involve i have a right to exit and i have a right to

return

to my nation yeah um but it doesn't necessarily the default meaning doesn't necessarily until the right to enter other places although some open borders people would say it does yeah so this is this is kind of a um maybe not the best prompt because how you what you think freedom of movement means would depend would be your answer but um yeah my i said i did say agree but without a right to

enter so i have a right to exit i have a right to return i don't have a right to enter other places

yeah it's kind of like a lot of the other things in the libertarian movement where you you know you have a right to do all kinds of sort of crazy things and you said

agree yeah i did as long as

you don't harm somebody else so so somebody else's right to you

know you have a right to freedom but

you don't have right of freedom movement into someone else's private property you know for sure um so so they're right and and government does have property you know and and they should have some controls that they can exercise based on what the will of the people is so i think that yeah you have a right to to you have a right to move anywhere you want and leave your country and return but that

doesn't mean that other people don't have a right that trumps

that which is you don't have a right to go to on their private property without permission and you don't have a right to uh you know go on a sovereign nation and do whatever you want yeah well i think even that

private property and then again i

i always like the idea of how your private property maximalism even if you started though from

a right of pure local private property right you

know my my neighbors and i and we can debate how big the scales get but you're going to want scales beyond my house right you know around who is or

not

welcome in my neighborhood or yeah i'm i'm quite fine with drawing a little line around the state of new hampshire uh and and saying this is the policies we might want you know here which

um that is part of why i'm done a couple changes i thought to but that's part of why i really like this conversation

or why i'm interested in this topic is you know how i do believe as we continue to succeed in new hampshire we will have the chance to do something far better than anything that exists in the world and so we have to think positively well what would our immigration system look like yeah you know if we if we got to do whatever we wanted what would that actually look like and i don't want to be naive i don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past but i also want to accomplish a whole you know again

markets work there's gains to be had and so how do we how do we how do we do you know get that get that right um we're definitely a little bit off topic from just the prompt at this point uh what i don't

know what else do what else do you have to say uh about this is a classic libertarian argument so i felt

like it deserved a proposition yeah no i think i think i think you covered it well i mean it depends what

you mean by freedom of movement and i think that um you

know like i said you know it i want to have

maximum freedom for everybody but i but but i also want people to have their own life liberty and property protected and have have their own controls and it is it is a great conversation because you want to think about like what you know who do you want in your community you know what what kind of people do you want um and i probably lean more towards you know there was a lot of issues with

people you know people were worried about catholic immigrants and they were worried about italian

immigrants and i mean people that are that are alive today you know there's people that are 80 years old who will tell you that you know they grew up being taught that the catholics and the irish and the italians were the worst possible people that could

ever come here and you got to stop them or

they're going to destroy our way of life and of course those immigrant groups ended

up being some of

the very very very very best americans that we have and uh and we see that now with with other groups that you know are as established now you know where where you know they've come in and they've been

productive so i i will i will say uh and

i'm i mostly by what you're saying there at the same time

my understanding is it's true that i this is one of my more contentious

takes the catholics haven't fully integrated uh uh i'm i'm i'm obviously not the person to be getting this argument but uh if you

look at the if you look at the data like there are measurable differences

between catholic and and protestant but aren't they in that positive i'm

not just i would agree that i would agree that i i think we've got a lot of great catholics here in new hampshire i think the average catholic is a basic better than average american so i'm not trying to knock the catholics but

they're like this idea of like well

so so i because i think it's this really interesting question it's like to what degree

is integration actually what does integration mean you know we we've had these communities in

different places in america where you have entire towns that are like you

know 85 percent german and a lot of them speak german and they kind of do their own thing and you see the differences today but

you have the mormons in in uh you know salt lake to this day and

utah is different than wisconsin

is different than maine is different than you know these places were settled by different types of

people and i i do agree

that to some extent we've integrated into this larger whole

of america at the same time it it it hasn't

been perfect like and i'm not saying that and maybe this is the best you can do or whatever but like everyone is not there there are real differences like we can we can see uh there's a great um book named um albion seed which actually traces through uh the various uh factions and areas of england and the united kingdom and where um you know uh people from the scottish highlands moved here and and people from the cities moved here and and the book argues that you can see you know 200 or 300 years later you can see all of these artifacts you know and and that these these these artifacts persist today and so you know i do like the idea to some degree like america people

like to

debate whether america is a propositional nation or an ethnic nation and to

me it's both uh there is a proposition there are propositions that we selected for

but the ethnicity hasn't and we have

one on

ethnicity later but the ethnicity is actually the next topic all right they were segueing nicely

uh they changed the subject on me so uh this one was ethnicity is relevant to immigration

um i put agree for this one yeah i think i think i think you put disagree uh so i'll continue on

the

sort of beat that i the beat that i was on which is like i it does seem like it matters and i'm not i'm not a determinist uh you know about this in any way but you can you know look around the room and who came out to this discussion tonight and who's interested in the free state movement and this kind thing and it it doesn't seem wholly random you know and so uh i would i would not embrace determinative determinism around ethnicity but it does seem like it's a signal it seems it's part it's information it's not it's not something that if you know we could disregard entirely and so that would be my position is that it's allowed to be weighed it's allowed to be a factor um and so i don't know if you

want to yeah i i think the key is it comes

back to the idea of you know what the core core values are that people have when when they come in and the reason i said no is because i definitely agree there is big ethnic differences like i mentioned earlier the sort of screwball countries and screwball people and countries which have a high number of screwballs you know pakistan is an interesting example is a huge huge country i think it's 240 million people it's almost as big as america and they have people that are very

very low education and and very different values than

a lot of us in new hampshire and in america and they have some of the they but because it's so huge they have uh you know millions of engineers and phds and they have billionaires and multi-millionaires and there's a very very big difference from somebody in pakistan who doesn't know how to read or somebody who is has a 40 million dollar net worth and they're you know they went to school here and they run a tech company i mean it's a night and day difference and i think the core thing we would want to look at um beyond just that and that you know ethnicity is a signal you know and there and pakistan is a is an example where there's a lot of good in pakistan there's there's probably you know even if it's only 10 or 20 that's 40 million potential good people from pakistan that could come here now there may be a hundred million that would not be in that benefit i'd put it lower but i would

agree it's not but but 10 percent the top 10 percent is is is very educated is you know a lot of a lot

of people that would share values but whatever there are countries like senegal where it's it's not 10

it might be one percent or less than one percent where where where where the overwhelming majority of

the people if they're from senegal yes there is a one

percent but it's kind of like one percent you know it's it's like a 90 something percent chance that they're not gonna jive uh well i'm i

would say i'm probably cooler on pakistan than than you

are um but no i i get what you're saying uh

you know pakistan um is on my list i one of the things i found interesting is that if you actually study the rate of cousin marriage um uh throughout history uh cousin marriage highly correlates

with

clannishness uh which is like uh this concern about um my sub clan my not even ethnic group but like this these much tighter uh groups and you know western european western european society

had the

lowest rates of cousin marriage and it has this the most universalist kind of ideologies where uh people believe in moral universalism and they want to extend rights to

everyone and and at the other end you

have societies which were um you know a lot of um a lot of arranged marriages a lot of intrafamilial marriages and this resulted in dispositions which are much less universalist and much more focused on uh the clan and the group um pakistan is near the top of the charts uh in some of these measures

by my

understanding but also to give you a point and this is why i think these issues are complex you know when i was doing my work with um library i would meet all these we had all these open source repos and we would sometimes get interesting contributors and one time i got and i would always message if someone did something interesting i'd always message them and reach out and and and try to talk to them and one time i got on a call with an interesting contributor and it was a 16 year old kid from pakistan and his dad was on the phone and he was like have you ever heard of this thing called unschooling and this is a real phone call that i had happen and so you know i do i'm i i i

would

always consider the fact i i would not disregard pakistani ethnicity if you gave me two people with the same list of facts about them you know i would and one of them was a german and one of them was from pakistan i would take i would take the german that's not a claim there's no but i would i would say that like it's not zero information but it's not it's

not deterministic and so that's fair uh that's

that's sort of where i'm at on that and to be fair if you have 500 cousins you might want to marry

one of them right you know all right let's keep it going i think that's

how many more do we have two or three two two okay okay this is our chance to talk about uh dubai

and some of these ones so guest residency without a citizenship without a citizenship path is is

unacceptable i said disagree i think it's

acceptable i i i said disagree although this

was um i want to

talk to you to you about this one but i did agree with you i said disagree yeah

uh yeah you know a lot about this so why don't you kick it off yeah i mean in the the

the the way that things work in the uae which includes dubai and and abu dhabi um works a lot like when it worked the best for us and uh they kind of let everybody in but they're extremely strict if you like i said if you commit a crime you're out and you're a guest and they'll kick you out if you and there's no expectation that you will you know automatically get citizenship it's a very very hard path to get citizenship uh and the other interesting thing that works really well there they have tiers um they have a thing uh called the golden visa which i have which is like the super premiere thing you you've

got to

have millions of dollars or know somebody and prove it and then you you get free reign like you can come

and go as you you basically have almost the privileges of a local you you're not a citizen

but you have this thing called a golden visa and you can buy property and open accounts and do whatever kind of whatever you want you can come and go as you please it lasts 10 years and then they have tiers you know if you have a couple hundred thousand dollars you're

pretty cool they'll let you in and if you're from america or whatever but if you come from one of these countries where

you know people make eight dollars a day they have quite strict they say first of all they've you've got to prove that you can uh sustain yourself so they say you've got to show a bank account that shows that you have two grand and we're going to give you a

three-month visa because

we want to make sure that you're not going to you know two grand is enough to cover you for whatever three months four months or something like that and if not

you need a sponsor and the sponsor's got to say that they're going to put a roof over your head and i think that that system it it works well because you have it's

it's like a rising tide that lifts all boats you have people that are you know the billionaires from pakistan or the u.s

or whatever that go there and they're

they're benefiting and you have people from the poorest of the poor countries where they were they were in their own country they were making eight dollars a day and they go there and now they're

making eighty dollars uh every two days

and they're like living the dream and then some of those people become you know after several years they become you know more senior in the you know not great jobs uh or they even become drivers or something

like that and then it's like being a becoming a driver is like it's like a normal person in manchester becoming a hedge fund manager it's like

10 steps above where they were you know and um and so it's kind of like what we used to call the american dream when people would come into ellis island and they would make a better life and then and

even better their kids you have their kids that are doing well well i gotta i i i i could push back

let me ask one thing actually um so my understanding is that with these types of uh systems in the in the uaa specifically the people who might come in on the sort of lower tier visas are who are coming in effectively as laborers they are frequently like housed in a segregated way like they're effectively segregated from a lot of society inside of inside of dubai or the uae they're doing work they but they're not they're not and correct

me i'm not saying i'm but they're mostly not mixing with

like the local population to the same degree that you might be on your gold

visa is that it's well

you know economics is a big part of it it's changed over time they used to have kind of these worker camps and 20 years ago there was stuff it used to annoy me these articles that would say like it's it's slavery or whatever it's not slavery it's voluntary you know they are

if you can't read and you're from

senegal i'm sorry but the world has not given you a great has not dealt you a great hand and and you know we can live in this fantasy land where everybody makes 25 an hour or works for a union but it these people will literally die from starvation so they're doing better when they're there so i think they were actually doing quite a humanitarian thing because they brought millions of these people here's

here's

one of my concerns like suppose like america has a population

that's coming in and working for very cheap so and they're not allowed to vote you know like what if americans then did something about that you know like what if they gave them all the right to vote you know like we agree right we kind

of had a little bit of an experiment like this at one time in our history

you know well you know

hopefully if they're here if they're here uh enough they you know they i mean in the uae they love the values and in our in our place you know a lot of those those immigrants that i mentioned from uh

but but the native side the native population of the uae is not it doesn't have that same like part of what makes they can't vote at all well but they but i don't i think and you can again i think you have more experience here so you really should feel comfortable correcting me but like my impression is the average western european has a much higher egalitarian

instinct than the average

muslim in the uae and so they're going to be way more comfortable with having a second-class citizen you know building them a house than americans

are that then then sort of people of than sort of western europeans so your your fear is that people will say oh these people are i get the same answer i get the same answer but but but yes that is what to

me the best argument against this or one of the best are is like well the people here people here don't like people here won't abide they do not like the idea of there being a second tier class of citizen yeah or well they're not citizens they don't like the idea of there being a second tier resident and uh and so you have you know a bunch of people

here

who are not citizens and that that will create a lot of discontent among the population either because either because they think they should are more deserving or because people are jealous about the ways that those people are participating in the yeah you know in the economy

and so to what degree is that

you know disruptive or harmful despite the ostensible

economic that's definitely a point and a lot of

people on the left would probably have issues with that and make make problems i

think it depends how you

look at second class you know i'm not an emirati so in many ways i am second class there is definitely

differences for me and a guest worker from bangladesh

but they're not as much as you might think it's it's mostly economic and there are rare but there are people who work there and because now it's been

going on 25 years so you have people where you know there are stories there's a guy who was you know

um there's well there's a famous story in in saudi uh the bin laden family the father became a multi-billionaire he started as a truck driver um he

didn't even know how to drive he barely knew how

to read he started as a truck driver he he got his own pickup truck and the long story short he expanded that into a multi multi-billion dollar construction empire and you do have that in uae you have people where they don't know how to read they learn how to read they learn how to speak a few languages they work their way up from a you know 50 a day job to a 150 a day job uh sometimes they become an uber driver then they do this or that and then they scrape together a bunch of money and they buy some little piece of property and they luck out and flip it for a triple and then they're and then you know 15 20 years later they have a 40 or 100 million dollar net worth it's rare but just like it happened in new york city with the immigrants from ireland and and um italy um you know 100 years ago it does happen it's rare but but it but but you know we're

all kind of second class but but there's

an opportunity for everybody to to you know increase their station it's very very hard to go from making 50 a day to 50 million um but there's a lot of people who go from making 50 a day to making

eight thousand dollars a year and they're excited about it so i

like the idea of lifting the the and and i feel it's very humanitarian because a lot of the people on the left would think like oh that's horrible i would never have somebody work for 50 a day it's like well you're just going

to have them die then that's certainly not my that's certainly not my oh no i know yeah but to the people that

the people that you mentioned that you're concerned about who would would say that and it is a valid

concern because people do a rational thing yeah well i i guess and this has sort of been a recurring

area of sort of disagree disagreement or not perfect alignment um you know which is to what degree do these types of designs or systems threaten the thing itself are are are there negative externalities being created by these or risks being created by these that aren't properly priced yeah and so you're you know you're bringing in cheap labor but is there and again cheap labor is

good that's not a bad word

for me uh but if if uh if

this is carrying some

risk right that's not priced yeah you know it that's

that that's that's that's not just somebody letting them letting them vote they could overthrow you

exactly that's exactly what's right yes that's exactly what i'm talking about 300 guys with ak's could cause a lot of problems in in new hampshire and so if these you

know is there is there resentment

building for what yeah so yeah they

the first the first year they're there they're happy they're making so much money from their home country the 50th year they're there you know what you know what

and there's people that have been um that have had sponsorship programs where they have used the sponsor you know there there are things there is nuance there's

details and there's stuff that that

that happens and there can be drawbacks i think overall something like uae works uh for the most part and that's really just a copy they just copied us it was our system

i don't i don't completely

it's a lot like our system was 50 years ago

100 years ago i mean yeah ellis island i don't i don't i

i don't think that that's uh i don't think that that's completely

true i think i think that um because we let them vote yeah yeah yeah and i think that's a really big difference but didn't wasn't it

what didn't it take a lot longer to to become a real citizen

of the u.s when you came over

there was a time when you you don't have to own property

to vote america's had a lot of different voting systems over time but that's also and wasn't the citizenship

test harder sure but but this okay but this is one of the lessons of sort of american history which is make

it yeah it's constantly we've

been on a you know yeah all we used to be much more like this and it's it's constant it's been this constant push for egalitarianism yeah you know and so that impulse does seem to exist within the population here maybe you can dream of some other population where

that impulse doesn't exist but it

does seem to be a strong uh impulse and that's the risk are we going on to the final one all right

oh okay final topic is uh federal enforcement federal immigration enforcement belongs at the border

not in the interior

i believe i was a disagree on this one

and i think you were in you were in agree

yeah yeah uh well this is actually probably one of the most uh uh parochial like sort of narrow uh topics you know i i could probably kind of anticipate your you know your position here because you kind of laid it out already yeah we already kind of touched on it which is yeah we do it externally and you know leave it up to the states or so on to me this is one where i could imagine something like that in the sort of status quo today where we don't

you know we don't have federalism

on the topic of immigration once you're here you

can you know go anywhere and as you mentioned earlier

we have a lot of states that would be very loose with you know that aren't interested in enforcing you their laws and so on and so forth and so um it's really just a practical question of well what's

the alternative you know uh well we're only going to enforce immigration at the border we're not going

to enforce it in the interior federally we're not going to enforce it with banking laws

we're not going to enforce it in residency laws we're not going to push with employment laws and it's like

well this does start to look like you're not you're not enforcing it at all and

so if there's some other practical way of doing it again like i want i want a new hampshire that's independent from the federal government i like the idea that my state can um

you know i i ice wouldn't actually be the area where i'm that concerned about it but i i don't you know i would like to be able to say the feds should go screw themselves in lots of other areas uh so uh you know uh but what's you know how

how you

know and i guess how are we doing it i mean i guess your answer is we catch them that they're

criminals yeah if they're yeah no it's interesting what do you think about something like driver's

licenses or something like that because a lot of people say you shouldn't have any driver's

license at all i'm very pro driver's license so if you say

well there would be a good way and then you could say if you're caught without a driver's license that's a problem and you've got to present proof that you're here legally if you have if you get a driver's

license yeah i mean i think in general and this is maybe a little bit off topic but we should be comparing things to the you know private alternatives like that's my sort of school of of liberty and it's like i i actually think uh this is uh don't don't clip this part but i i actually think we've got it if

you're pro privacy and freedom

you've actually got it pretty good with government roads like i think i think if the roads were privatized we'd probably have like harsher and more jacodian kinds of of systems because like the road

you don't want palantir running the road i'm not i'm not this is not a this is not a like uh what's

it this is a and it is not an ought i just think that the actual demand for privacy in the marketplace isn't that large uh and so you know if we had if we ever did have private roads we'd probably

i'm way off topic we'd see we'd see ways to get enforcement and so um yeah uh i i don't know how i

don't i don't how much more do you want to talk about this one we could no i think that

makes sense

i mean uh you know i'd like to see more at the border but you know maybe what we need is a kinder gentler ice you know maybe maybe just like the old

ins or something like that you know to consider

your point especially in these lefty states where they're just not going to enforce

anything are they actually you know maybe there is a place for the feds i think they should be the last possible resort i know there were a couple of bad incidents and i wouldn't defend them wholly necessarily but

this is also across a very large number of interactions in places where they're frequently meeting a lot of resistance you know and

it's tough because we learn

things by anecdote which isn't the best way to understand things when there's hundreds of

thousands or millions or

you know whatever happening it is is

it have they actually been that bad like my my impression is

again i could point to a couple i didn't love but my impression is it hasn't

been it's been okay overall i you know yeah i mean they were to your point

they were they were partly trying to look bad i think in some way i mean they're trying to be scary yeah i'm trying to

make a show of force

and there's a reason that they picked tim wall's estate to show up heavy-handed we haven't seen it here in new hampshire as much thank goodness i think we might feel different at least i would i wouldn't be i wouldn't want to see these guys with the i don't like feds with masks i wouldn't want to i don't want somebody pulling me over on the way to come here to manchester and be like oh well

actually we didn't have it as tough but i still agree with that

i mean and i know um this has been an

unpopular one even with my own audience but i agree that

if you're a federal agent you have to be identifiable i think that's like a requirement uh

you know uh to me and so this idea that

it's risky for them or whatever okay that's what you're signing up for we can increase the pay i you know but you're gonna i think you have to be identifiable that's i i do i do agree with that

cool uh well uh do we have any final cards or data to review or should i just wrap it up

we do have one final card i'm not sure if it displays the card though

okay i'm going to assume we're wrapping it up we'll fix it we'll fix it in the youtube video

that's it uh so uh this was a uh a

couple a couple of rocky moments but i thought i thought this was really great uh i was i it wasn't it wasn't

a fireworks show but i said it wasn't going to be

uh a fireworks show and i thought it was excellent to get some of bruce's opinions hear them in in person hopefully i

thought it was great i had told jeremy i said i don't want to

debate you man you're way too smart you know and he said no it's not a debate it's friendly discussion so uh i like it and it was good i and i think these kind of things you know what we both share is that we care the most about the most liberty answer

and that's i think something that

that you know i i mean in a perfect world will influence people who don't even think about liberty

and they'll be thinking about between the two of us they'll be way

better off no matter whose side they are uh and that that would be the ultimate goal and all the folks here and who support this i think we're really building something important here in new hampshire so thank you for putting this together and i think uh you know i look forward to hearing more of these conversations well thank

you because a big part of what we're trying to do with the free state party is you know a lot of the work here in new hampshire and i i love all the work that people are doing is it's

very much editing the status quo and i would like to see more work being done from the bottom up on like what's the positive

vision how do we solve these problems and in my view that means we're going into the unknown you know and we don't want to be jumping down each other's throats on every disagreement we don't know

what we're doing we're trying to you know we're trying to figure this out and so we should keep that aggression towards our enemies and and and keep it friendly yeah it's our one thing the democrats

are great at is sticking together and if we can have more unity uh with the common vision of liberty

in our lifetimes i think that's a win for everybody let's end on that thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you uh uh

i don't think we're going to do questions as part of the video

but people i know some people did

say that they had questions and so if people have questions that are burning inside of

them yeah so i so from uh some things you were talking about with um particularly uae and saudi arabia and some of their particularly you're talking about how

they made whether they did or did not take some of our

ideas with the mls-sami period um one thing i wanted to bring up was particularly supreme court precedent affecting the way that we can actually put us in

a box so in 1886

the 14th amendment's people protection laws basically established that aliens are eligible for that limitation to say that they get the same rights as citizens and then that's been gradually over time established you know over the last 50 years i guess my question to both of you but particularly bruce you know since you're more of a you know hardline libertarian on this how would you address that issue where not from legislation

or even the executive but from judicial standpoint

if the supreme court keeps the issue to say that a illegal alien or immigrant comes in and says i have this right to be treated the exact same as a citizen so they can so that's why they can vote yes yeah yeah yeah that's a great point exactly the same as a citizen when it comes to employment when it comes to you know i have the same rights as you because

that document that was written right after the civil

war to address you know like the conflict thereafter said about this group oh i'm the same guy yeah yeah yeah i mean the voting part is is is really key

i mean it worked out well when we used to let a lot more people in

somehow they ended up becoming

most of them became great americans and then that benefit but i think that was all tied in with a

lot of these other issues that we have with the entitlement i mean i think people who come in on the entitlements are really much more likely to you

could have somebody who's great but if you lock them in one of those stupid hotels down in massachusetts and you don't

allow can you imagine they don't allow

you to work somebody's sitting in there who's dying to

work and there's and he's got to sit there and play xbox all day and you you know they're going to become una

ineffective so i think it ties in with a lot of our other

issues um but yeah that's a great point i

don't have a great i don't have a magic bullet for it um you know how we how we fix that you know because the voting is key you know i'm i'm worried like jeremy said you know we're already a minority the libertarians are already a minority even in new hampshire um i am very concerned about people who come in and and say you know well yeah

you of course

you need to have the you know just you you got to wear a mask just in case copen comes back you know that that concerns me a lot i don't want those people to be able to vote um but i don't have a good solution uh you know on how to fix that i want to give people so

it's already 8 30 is that right

yeah i want to give people some a little bit of social time so we got any burning burning questions all right one more yeah so we can get you

on the mic i'm sure uh first uh federal immigration enforcement on that topic i've read something like a third or more of illegals are these overstays can you comment on they would be invisible at the border it would look legal at the border

they're coming in when they're coming in and they stay too long well you know i think i think it comes back to the enforcement and what what we see like i you know i mentioned the example um you know that happened to me you know my own wife where you know it's known in a lot of these other countries if you overstay you it's a big problem they're gonna they're gonna kick you out or if you somehow sneak around and you know you can hide anywhere but you're never going to be able to come back in and i think if we had you know i don't think it's it's that big of a deal if the people overstay now as far as an enforcement standpoint i think if they did overstay

um you know that that uh that we should have

much better enforcement about that and and let them know you know to jeremy's point like you make a signal of it to say so that they word spreads among their community like oh man you know my cousin he overstayed by three days and they caught him at the dmv and now he can never come back or he can't come back for 15 years i better not do that i'm coming up on my 80th day i'm gonna go in and check you know that would be sort of ideal if you if you make examples and make it so that it's it's painful for

for people to to overstay and then you have a

you also have a good reason to get rid of them um but yeah a lot of complexity like anything

no magic bullet okay yes thank you thank you uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh