Should We Abolish ICE? Two Libertarians Disagree

i say abolish them

get rid of them all right so i was i was uh i was

a disagree uh on this one okay i guess i'll go first uh you know i don't uh i'm not like an ice lover you know i think i think obviously they uh you know they make mistakes i think there are criticisms that i would

have of them you know but you know my understanding is it's something

like 15 million people were or a very large number of people were let in over the last four years uh these people it was not legitimate that they enter the united states i don't believe that these people are for the most part making

america more american let's say or

making america more libertarian if that that first phrase is uh too vague you know and so uh would

we

really be better off with nothing i would i you know i would i would come down on on knowing

that and i can

understand of course having problems with with some

of what you know some of what ice does um but i still

wouldn't i still wouldn't come down on on we could just get rid of it

yeah um the biggest issues i

have with ice i mean one it's it's sort of part of this dhs this

this sort of domestic standing army

that our founders uh founding fathers warned about you know it's really a bush cheney creation this homeland security apparatus and then they they rolled

in ins what it used to be ins i think it

worked better when it was ins um

you know i i think that you know growing up in most of our

lifetimes especially people who are over 45 uh ins was the the the sort of authority and it wasn't known as being as heavy-handed as as as ice i think ice has been ineffective i think it cost something like 220 000 for every person that they've deported so that's a lot of money um we do have where i might agree with you a little bit on this is that in an ideal world we wouldn't need them because we would have good enforcement on uh and i try and look at what what works i travel a lot um the the uae

we're gonna do that one though we're gonna do we have a guest residency all right the the the idea of

where i've seen it work well is when you if you have a country that has absolutely no tolerance for crime because i don't really care if somebody's here illegally if they're

not draining our money and

committing crimes um i don't care about somebody who's you know illegally helping on a you know a plumbing contractor uh or or doing whatever under the table that's not a big issue and i certainly

don't want to spend 220 000 of our money and have a bunch

of you know frankly heavy-handed sometimes

thuggish mask-wearing people that don't respect the constitution you know you saw the video in

main of them saying you know hey we're gonna put you on a list and this kind

of thing i don't really

want that um what i do have a problem is if that person here is here illegally and they commit crimes and ideally we would have the local starting with the very local police in your local town and your local justice system would if they commit a crime absolutely no tolerance and and there's other countries where you commit a crime in say uae

you're out you're gone instantly all right so i

gotta let me let me push back on a couple of these uh so one you know the uae is a much different immigration system and country in general you know and so i guess part of this you didn't you said it earlier but not in your last answer it's also we've also abolished democracy or something like this where these immigrants are not participating in the you know they're not participating in the political process to the same degree right like immigrants

an immigrant to dubai or

uae is not participating in the political process at all um something else i would say is and this is where i think actually ice has probably done the best is not even removing illegals

but acting as a sound deterrent

we've seen a substantial drop in the amount of people who are coming in in the first place so we can look at the actual sticker number of what it costs per removal i don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head but my understanding is that there's a substantial multiple of the people who are removed who are either self-removing or not coming in the first place

and so certainly a 200 000 per removal price might be

high but if you're getting you know some multiple keeping

10 more for coming in and so on and so

forth and so i do think any kind of analysis you know has like it might be that the best bang for the buck is like mean ice tweets you know like because they're like that's very cheap yeah and uh and it gets the it gets people scared from coming here in the first place that might actually be you know sort of one of the most like like highest roi actions like i actually kind of wonder when they're getting you know because they make these posts they sometimes get like ratioed

or

attacked or whatever and i'm like maybe this is actually the single best thing they're doing because it's making everyone aware uh you know of this like my impression is the average illegal immigrant is not like a high information uh person who's like closely following federal government policy they're kind of picking it up through vibes and so if the vibe is harsher then maybe that's one of the more you know effective deterrent yeah vibes

matter um you know that's another thing i've seen work uh globally you know because because you know and i know you you've made this point before you know there are people that are just really really ignorant i mean there are people that you had a great line you said some people don't even understand cause and effect yeah i mean there's people that just don't get it and they maybe only understand uh you know gee that's scary that bad yeah you know and and so they you know they you know you you do want to

deter them to some degree yeah so i do think

that expectation setting is really important um and we will probably

do a longer dive in dubai but

again my impression is that's something they do very well there's this expectation of like

yeah you better not come here and mess around yeah it's very known

and they make very high profile uh if you if somebody steals your phone they will be caught period absolutely

positively that person is

going to be caught they're going to investigate it with the level that they would investigate a murder here in manchester they're going to have 30 i had a friend he had his watch stolen they had they had three detectives and four other officers show up within half an hour they traced every camera they treated it like it like somebody stole the crown jewels they traced this person figured out where they were they got the guy's watch back within four hours and that person was on a plane out of the country within seven more hours probably after that they held

them in a holding cell until they're out of

there and that spreads quickly because the the people especially the worst people the people who are super super low information uh and not good wouldn't wouldn't otherwise be good to sit they hear that and they know that and they're like gee this is not a i'm gonna lose a good thing they're gonna put me on a plane back to my crappy country i don't want to go there i'm gonna i'm gonna be on

my best behavior before we move on from this one i mean don't you think if we just abolish us tomorrow that does mean that there's a lot more people coming into america that we don't

necessarily i'd like to go back to like the ins and i'd

like to have the enforcement at the border rather than internally because internally it can also affect our rights and we've had a number of people where our rights you know there's stories where there's a you know i think there was a doctor they pulled over his car they accused him of being illegal you know we don't want to have those kind of things in a free society and

you know one argument is that well you're

dealing with millions of people you're going to have some percentage you know

half a percent or 0.01

percent or whatever you're gonna have some sliver um but i don't like to see that in a in a free society at all i don't want to see people's rights violated i don't want to be in a papers

please uh society um you know so i would

rather have it at the board in a you know we have again perfect world and what what is reality in a perfect world we'd have very very very strong border and we would have judges not just in new hampshire but across the country where they had this no

intolerance policy like you're here it doesn't matter illegally illegally you're a guest and you

treat it like a giant piece of private property like you violated our property here you're out um and uh you know that's especially difficult to deal with in places like ohio california uh massachusetts you know where they don't they don't respect the rule of law and they let people get away with with crime so so you'd have to take that all those billions of dollars

were spent on ice maybe you

have the federal prosecutors lock up a couple of these judges and uh and lock up some of these some of these prosecutors who failed and and and you know just just

get rid of some of these crazy systems

like they have in mass you know down in massachusetts you go down route 128 here um there's hotels that the government runs that they just took over they gave massive multi-million dollar contracts they bought a catering firm they give three meals a day to people who are here illegally and they let them stay there and then they were they forbid them from working i mean that's just completely you know completely crazy but um but yeah i mean i i think you know ideally we put it closer to us ideally individuals and next best is local police next best is state police absolute worst is is the feds there are times when feds are necessary but i would rather exhaust

everything else first i i think

i i i will say i'm not persuaded but i think we have another one to