Can Liberty Exist Without Christianity?

Liberty can exist without Christianity. And we actually both agreed. I will, I predicted all of your answers.

I got this one wrong. Yeah, I imagine.

So while we both agreed, so I guess there's nothing to talk about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, once again, this is a scenario of, you know, if if you ask me personally what is true liberty found in, I believe it is in following Christ. I believe it's in living as much as you can in accordance with uh his teachings, with his truth, uh, by worshiping

God and following his word.

I want to make that clear. That said, uh I'm I tend to hold again towards the Aristotelian understanding of liberty, which is that we are oriented towards the telos of our society. And so I do think that there can be liberty in societies that

are not Christian. They wouldn't be the way I want to live.

I want to live in a society where liberty is oriented towards the Christian good. But I can recognize other societies could produce good

outcomes.

I can look at Japan and recognize that while that is not my culture, and ultimately I would probably not find myself comfortable in that society. It has produced a good, right? It has produced a society that I've and maybe some people would say that well that's not liberty, but I think for the Japanese it is. But that is again because I have this more uh particular and contingent understanding of liberty as opposed to a universal standard. And so I do think that other societies are able to achieve liberty outside of Christianity, even though I would prefer Christian

liberty to others. Well, that's interesting.

And that and again, I am uh just so naturally an arguer that I'm now gonna disagree with you.

Uh well, uh, you know, and I I do I do ultimately

agree with the premise, but like it's not clear to me that Japan is a uh ha you know has a lot of liberty

as a nation.

I think Japan's a wonderful nation from everything you know I can tell. Um, you know, from a lot of the metrics that I and I look at all these graphs and and data and stuff, like Japan is an exceptional country, it's incredibly safe, it's incredibly trustworthy. It it is not, and this is one of the differences between sort of East Asian nations and Western European nations, which might otherwise share high economic output and low criminality and a decent amount of social trust or whatever, although this can vary depending on where you are in Asia, Japan being particularly exceptional.

They don't have individuality. Individuality is a specifically

Western Europe. Specifically Anglo. Yeah, actually. Yeah.

Like, oh yeah, yeah, you have to be very fine. It's uh the Hajnell, you know, kind of map or the those lines of uh, you know, it's it's this this sort of tolerance for uh, you know, a variety of lifestyles and and and so on and so forth, which uh I do think is part of liberty. It doesn't mean you have to approve of them, uh, but you're not circumscribing

them.

This this is it really is a a uniquely Western European uh phenomenon. I would ultimately say that liberty can exist without Christianity because I think a lot of people from those areas, even if they're not actively practicing as Christians, do nonetheless seem to hold these beliefs, so it's not clear to me that it specific specifically requires Christianity. I see Christianity as having had a very positive force, you know, in in producing liberty. Uh, but living here in New Hampshire, you know, I've met a lot of people who are pro-liberty, who are good people, you know, who return the shopping cart, etc., who would not, you know, who are not practicing Christians.

And so I don't see it as a requirement. I see it as something that is very aligned. It's less common to find these beliefs outside of it. But I I ultimately uh agreed with this because it does exist outside of it. Um, but I but I but I wouldn't it well, it's not clear to me that that Japan has liberty, though.

I would again it it really you have to define your liberty, and I think you're doing it in a very specific, grounded way, which I by the way, I agree with that construction. I would say that your construction of liberty is almost entirely based on Protestantism. Uh you what you're looking at is the freedom of conscience that is inherent in Protestant understanding. If you look at someone like Alexis de Tocqueville talking in in Democracy America, he actually says that American uh individuality is a problem. And he says the only thing that's gonna save American f America from its individualism is the free associations.

The fact that the Protestant idea is that you create these churches, these community organizations, everything else that will bind society together, even though you're hyper-liberal. And so the idea is actually that this liberty cannot exist without those very Christian communities that allow it to bind together. Of course, he's a Frenchman, so even though we think of Western civilization, to him, the Anglo construction of freedom was very different from the French construction, and one worth criticizing. So remember, when we're again, like the particularity of uh the tradition is what matters here.

And I think when we talk about the very particular American understanding of liberty, I think it is actually almost entirely grounded in Protestant Christianity, which doesn't mean every person has to ultimately follow Protestant Christianity. There are some founders who were iffy on that one, right? But ultimately they were all deeply uh influenced by

what is it? Uh Christopher Hitchens, or no, not Christopher Hitchens.

Uh what's the other insufferable horseman?

Um Dawkins. Yeah, Dawkins.

Uh Dawkins just uh said, Well, of course, I'm a Christian atheist,

right? Yeah, and it's it's funny, but we all know what that means. Well, okay, we all know what that means. So, okay, I'm uh I'm a Dawkins fan, so I'll defend them a little bit.

I'm just gonna unmike here, you guys have a okay.

The selfish gene is a great book. You don't have to endorse all of his atheism. Understanding a gene-centric view of evolution, I think is a very valuable view, which Dawkins deserves a lot of credit for. And Dawkins, like a good liberal,

uh, he he corrected himself.

Like he, I look, I think he sees himself as having made a mistake. Uh, you know, he he sort of saw how the way that that Muslims were coming into England,

he's like, Oh boy, maybe this wasn't all such a good idea, you know, and like he It turns out that maybe his liberty is

no longer available if he doesn't live in a Christian society.

And much to ponder there. Okay, and so and okay.

But so you can still uh say, hey, he got that wrong, but like a lot of people who get something wrong will never admit

it.

And he at least kind of did. Uh, you know, and so to me that's I respect that.

Uh the cupflower's morality is a little difficult to forgive.

I'm glad he figured it out at the end, I suppose. I wish he would just go the rest of the way.

Well, he figured it out more, yeah, more than more than uh, you know, more than a a lot of a lot of people. He even uh uh I saw a funny interview with Dawkins where he was asked about um uh uh the sort of Voltaire quote about like um uh you know, I don't believe in God, but I hope my maid does.

Right.

Uh and and uh he was asked that uh and he really uh struggled with it.